November 9,1998

The Government's image has in recent times plummeted but the Prime Minister deflects charges of inertia and defends his policies vehemently

Until recently, Murli Manohar Joshi was best known as the only BJP president denied a second term in office for his aggressive views. Last fortnight, Joshi, the Union minister for human resources development (HRD), was back in the headlines as his actions on the eve of an otherwise routine event managed to convert the annual state education ministers' conference into another embarrassing moment for the BJP Government. When editor Prabhu Chawla and special correspondent Vijay Jung Thapa went to interview him, Joshi preferred to meet them in the quietness of his office at the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, away from the hustle and bustle of Shastri Bhavan that houses the HRD Ministry. Reflective, angry, resilient, even combative at times, Joshi argued what he did was for the country's good. Excerpts:

Why is there so much of hostility towards you?
Politics. On December 3, 1997, in the same Vigyan Bhavan there was a Saraswati Vandana sung by school children at a government function where the President and the prime minister were present. The Left Front was supporting that government and the TDP was part of that government. Right from the days of Pandit Nehru, invocations have been sung. It is nothing new.

But nobody opposed that.
The leftists are teaching only Marx. You must teach subjects relevant to the Indian ethos. They are not teaching Mahatma Gandhi and Aurobindo in West Bengal and Kerala. If somebody says teach something Indian, he is immediately called communal.

Why did you involve an outsider (P.D. Chitlangia) at the conference?
It is common that at all such meetings experts present their views. Look at Anna Hazare. All international organisations are inviting him. Chitlangia is a person who has performed a unique experiment in this country -- 1,300 schools in tribal areas. No individual or organisation has done such a thing. And at a very low cost -- Rs 10,000-12,000 per year per school. He plans to run 5,000 more schools in the coming two years.

Could the controversy have been avoided if you had started a dialogue?
It was a dialogue. I had said this is a recommendation from a group of experts and this is for discussion and deliberation, not implementation. If the (state) minister does not read his text, what can I do about it? It was circulated long ago. This group of experts was serious about education.

But they all had RSS connections.
Are V. Raghavan and Subhash Kashyap RSS men? Are members of the Bharatiya Vidya Bhawan, Vivekananda Mission, Ramakrishna Mission, Dayanand Society, officers of the Delhi and Haryana governments and the Education Department all RSS men? Two hundred people deliberated for two to three days and gave this to me.

After almost eight months in power you are still following Rajiv Gandhi's education policy of 1986. Where is your own policy?
An education policy can only be designed after you have a conference with the states because the implementation lies with the states. That's what we were trying.

Why don't you reduce the subsidies in higher education?
There is a fit case for raising fees. But if you try to change the fee structure, the opposition parties create a ruckus in Parliament. I've been saying, please cooperate, otherwise your own grandchildren will remain illiterate. But also remember, the fee has to be raised by the universities. The Government has no power to do this.

What about the controversy in trying to change Article 29 and 30 of the Constitution that relates to special minority rights?
I was not trying to amend it. There was a suggestion by the experts to extend a right, that is now enjoyed by a few, to others. I myself am only committed to the agenda of governance.

Whenever you do something, it becomes controversial. Look at the Indian Council of Historical Research (ICHR).
There is no controversy there. Just because the Left says it's controversial doesn't mean it becomes so. If I say anything against communists it never becomes controversial. But why does it always become a controversy if they say so?

So did you launch an ideological battle against them at the ICHR?
No. There were 18 ICHR members whose terms had expired. I haven't changed anybody. According to the mandate of the ICHR, I had to appoint 18 members. All of them are first-rate honest historians.

But they are also anti-Left.
I don't go by whether they are left-wing or right-wing. It's interesting how if all 18 members are Marxists they suddenly become very secular, democratic and academic. But if they are independent historians, then they are labelled communal and biased. I call this academic fascism.

Why do you always adopt a confrontationist attitude? It seems the whole political spectrum is always against you.
Let them do what they want. The whole of the country is with me. Those who oppose me are an insignificant minority. Everybody wants an education with an emphasis on morals. But I am a democrat. If 10 ministers say we don't want to discuss this, I say okay we will not discuss it. Let us talk about the rest.

So will you continue with your agenda?
Today, I am only continuing with the agenda for governance for which I am appointed.

One of the main problems in higher education today is that there is no accountability of teachers. What are you doing about this?
We have said that a self-regulatory code of conduct needs to be brought in. You can't enforce a code of conduct. It has to come from within. If I give a code of conduct, nobody will accept it.

But do you really believe teachers will come forward and do this?
Yes, it works. There are already universities which have a code of conduct. In my university, we had a contract the teacher signed that said this is what I will follow and if I don't follow it then I am punishable.

What do you feel about foreign universities which are recruiting our students and also trying to set up business here?
At the moment I am against them coming into our country.

Over the last few years some government institutions are being controlled by politicians. An example is the Indira Gandhi National Centre for Arts (IGNCA). Is there an attempt to change them?
It all depends on the people you appoint. I will not comment on the IGNCA because it is sub-judice. But yes, these institutions should not become political fiefdoms. I would like to see all institutions function according to a proper mandate. The mandate should be followed. Some of them which are now functioning should remember their original mandate. We will change them when the time comes.

You have been a party president. In this Government there are three presidents. Would you call yourself a successful minister or a controversial one?
That is for the people to judge. I don't judge myself. I don't call myself anything. Just a minister working to the best of my ability.

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