PARTY

IT: Every NDA party talks about its agenda. Like Vaiko is doing. Is giving up its agenda applicable only to the BJP?
LKA: No, it isn't. So far as NDA programme is concerned, everyone has to accept it. But none of us has to be apologetic about our ideology. But today my government is committed to the NDA programme and we adhere to it strictly, we don't go beyond it. This is an approach I would like to apply to all parties. Like I don't want George Fernandes to disown Dr Lohia, though there are many views of Dr Lohia which I don't agree with.

IT: But yet a lot of the problems in the Government or for the Government, and for you personally, have been caused by those who claim to be the strongest adherents of your philosophy. Starting right from 1992, Ayodhya and what we saw in Gujarat. The biggest embarrassments to you and your Government have been caused by those people.
LKA: Now, 1992. When I had occasion to appear before the Liberhan Commission, on oath I said all that I believed in. As home minister I have said all that. It is on record and I don't feel apologetic about it. I said that I regard the Ayodhya movement as one of the greatest movements in independent India though I feel extremely distressed that the demolition of the structure should have taken place in 1992. And I described that day, December 6, in an article I wrote for the Indian Express immediately after the incident as the saddest day of my life. But the tendency on the part of some to just pick upon something and on that basis to project a distorted picture is there which one has to be cautious of.

IT: What is the the future of a party based on religion and nationalism in a world where the market and technology are the most decisive forces?
LKA: Religion always has its own importance, though not for political purposes. It lends a strength to a country, to a people, to society. Do not think of religion in terms of politics. Had it not been for these pseudo-secularists we would not have come up in this manner.

IT: Will you still try to put premium on religion rather than performance in the next elections?
LKA: I am not saying that, I am saying quite the contrary. I am saying that it is important not for politics, it is important for the country, for the nation. It was the two blunders committed by Rajiv Gandhi—Shah Bano first and Ayodhya next—that made us feel that here is a person who belongs to the Congress party, who has such a vast majority and who thinks that one should build up vote banks in this manner and why should we hesitate in responding to the Ayodhya movement in a manner which naturally comes to us, why should we hesitate? Earlier we had been keeping away from it.

IT: You said —naturally comes to us.
LKA: Naturally because we never stopped Rajmata Vijayaraje Scindia or Uma Bharati from participating in that movement. We said why not, go ahead. But as a party we were not inclined to do it. We became inclined to do it because of these two things. And a formal decision was taken at Palampur in 1989.

IT: The part has no slogan today.
LKA: The new president has given a new slogan: Ek haath me BJP ka jhanda, doosre haath mein NDA agenda.

IT: That is just for votes.
LKA: No, that is not for votes. This is just summing up what is the direction.

IT: What are the achievements of your Government in terms of the ideological projections of your party?
LKA: I would say coalition dharma and experimentation in so far as governance is concerned.

IT: It is compromise.
LKA: No it is not compromise.

IT: You have the largest Cabinet now.
LKA: Largest? You see the largest in the states. So many parties and yet it is about 70-75 , which has been normal even in single-party government

IT: So the first is coalition dharma.
LKA: Coalition dharma. And the leader of course. It is one of the major factors. A leader whose acceptability transcends not only party but even the NDA.

IT: Mrs Gandhi won three elections in a row.
LKA: Winning three elections in a row is one thing. Not the kind of acceptability that Vajpayeeji has.

IT: There is a certain disconnection between the Government and the younger generation. After all, 65 per cent of Indians are under 35 and 50 per cent under 20.
LKA: We have been conscious of it. I was party president when some of the young leaders of the party became active. Now too, when Venkaiah (Naidu) discussed his new executive with me, he was all the while conscious about what should be the average age+I told him that your concern is understandable, don't let this become an obsession.

IT: You mean the young India will continue to be ruled by the old?
LKA: Not necessarily. But at the same time age cannot be the sole criterion and particularly in a democracy, where the stature of a politician grows as time passes.

KASHMIR

ON KASHMIR

"Governor's rule will help the credibility of the poll process in Kashmir. There has been a willingness on the part of the state leaders."

IT: As a loyal, age-old swayamsevak, today you have to contest an idea put forward by the RSS on the trifurcation of Kashmir+it is not the first time you have had to do it. Repeatedly in Government you had to contest it on many occasions. Do you think there are certain areas the RSS should keep out of or do you think there is a vast difference between your perceptions in Government and those of the RSS?
LKA: No, let me tell you that I have been in the Jan Sangh since 1951 and in Jammu and Kashmir the Jan Sangh work was confined to Jammu. And since 1951-52 the feeling was that because of the Kashmir Valley, Jammu was also being dragged into a situation which we do not deserve. So periodically a demand would arise, let Jammu be merged with Himachal Pradesh or let Jammu be carved out as a separate state and merged fully with the rest of India so that there is no Article 370 in Jammu. And we never agreed to it as a fact, though it was a popular feeling, a popular feeling which was strengthened by the kind of discrimination Jammu has always experienced at the hands of Srinagar. Yet we did not agree to it because even in those days we felt that on the issue of Jammu and Kashmir, Pakistan does not really claim Jammu, they do not claim Ladakh; their claim is exclusively on the Kashmir Valley. And when we say that Jammu and Kashmir is part and parcel of India we are really emphasising the Valley. Though it has a Muslim majority, Jammu and Kashmir is part of India: this is our stand. And in order to ensure that this stand is accepted by the whole world, if we think in terms of partitioning Jammu or trifurcation as is being suggested lately, we will sychologically be conceding that we do not have any claim on the Kashmir Valley. So it would, wittingly or unwittingly, strengthen Pakistan's case and, therefore, we are opposed to it. Not merely today, not merely when we are in Government. The Jan Sangh was opposed to it and the BJP has been consistently opposed to it.

IT: So the RSS has ironically strengthened the Pakistani case?
LKA: We have tried to convey to them that this is the outcome. Secondly, it is not going to happen because we, who can be supposed to support that viewpoint, are opposed to it.

IT: Don't you find something galling in the fact that when the leadership of the RSS makes requests—right from the appointment of vice-chancellors to positioning of joint secretaries to other things? Is this really the role of the RSS?
LKA: They don't do it. They don't do it. They may occasionally suggest someone but it+s not true that they ask us.

IT: Do you think as a home minister you have succeeded in framing a clear cut policy on internal security?
LKA. By and large I can say yes. It is the result of a twofold approach dealing with the insurgency on the ground in Jammu and Kashmir, identifying the ISI top modules all over the country. More than 150 of them were identified and busted. And at the same time, there was a sustained international campaign to see that states which promote terrorism are ostracised. From Agra to Almatty, the Pakistani leader has changed dramatically. Maybe it is international pressure but overall the Government+s response to the challenge of internal security has been there.

IT: What about your own agenda—identity cards, Bangladeshis to be identified and deported, and after that the white paper on the ISI?
LKA: Except the white paper on the ISI, that is one thing where the draft was also ready but it was the agencies dealing with the ISI who strongly advised against it, said either it will be very sketchy or if has to be a detailed structure it will impede our work. So far as identity cards are concerned, it is part of the NDA's programme and is part of our own approach also. But in the one meeting of chief ministers that I held they did not agree, some of them on the ground that it was not feasible, not practical, others on the ground that it is not desirable. It can be implemented only if there is a statute, if it is statutory, compulsory for all citizens to have an identity card, then alone can it succeed. A statute in the present Parliament is feasible only if the major parties agree.

IT: Is Jammu and Kashmir an internal security issue or is it a diplomatic issue?
LKA: It's both. It is a combination of both. And it is a combination of not only these two issues, it is also related to a balanced relationship between New Delhi and Srinagar if that develops, and I am talking not only of the governments but the people as well.

IT: Where is the Kashmir policy of the Government being decided? Is it at the Home Ministry or is it somewhere else?
LKA: Before this Government was formed, Jammu and Kashmir was not part of the Home Ministry. It is only after this Government was formed, and that too after a couple of months or so that the Jammu and Kashmir Department came here. Earlier because of not only George but even when there was a minister of state ...

IT: Rajesh Pilot.
LKA: ...then it had been shifted. However in these last four years we have undertaken a very determined international campaign against state-sponsored terrorism and we have succeeded in having joint working groups with half-a-dozen countries.

IT: Has the Kashmir policy been marked by divergence, incoherence?
LKA: Not incoherence. But there have been certain initiatives which have had to be reconciled. In the initial phase there were some difficulties but they have been totally straightened out.

IT: Is there a possibility of holding the Kashmir elections under governor's rule?
LKA: There has been a willingness indicated by the state leadership, by Farooq Abdullah sahib and Omar. So, it will be they who would have to recommend it.

IT: Will it be the endeavour of this Government to ensure that elections in Kashmir are completely free and fair, as much as in 1977?
LKA: That is one of the basic factors which creates confidence in both the Government of India as well as the Government of Jammu and Kashmir that they mean to give the people of Jammu and Kashmir a really fair deal.

IT: Does it mean that holding elections under governor's rule will make it more credible?
LKA: I think so. It will help the credibility of the whole poll process.

GUJARAT

IT: Your Government once promised a riot-free India.
LKA: Yes. That unfortunately has been affected by Gujarat. Otherwise, in the rest of the country, it has been riot free. In Gujarat, the past riots have been caused by very trivial reasons+a cricket match, kite-flying, something of that kind. This time it was a horrendous incident at Godhra which sparked that riot. My own feeling is that the firmness with which the Government came down should have ended it within few days. Three-four days later it seemed to have been contained considerably but after that it seems that some vested interests kept it alive.

IT: Would you subscribe to K.P.S. Gill's statement that elections would be a healing touch?
LKA: Yes, could be but it is a decision that the state government has to take. I visited Gujarat recently and I told the chief minister that he had to take a decision.

IT: You are also the MP for Gandhinagar, so you will very much be party to that decision?
A: Yes.

IT: Your own preference would be for elections soon?
LKA: Immediately after the monsoons are over.

IT: Do you think a change of leadership is necessary?
LKA: No I don't think so. Just as individuals become effective instruments as symbols for change, similarly individuals become convenient targets for people who want to convey something. Now I said it in the House, I said when last year there was an earthquake the entire debate went on for hours and it ended with—Keshubhai must resign, Keshubhai must resign. I said I am not surprised therefore that this time also the concluding part would be...

IT: Modi must resign. There is no chance of Modi being shifted before the elections?
LKA: I don't see any reason.

IT: In the context of the riots, there is subtext, an anger amongst people. A large part of it stems from the fact that the BJP cadre feels that the party has yielded space.
LKA: No, when you are referring to anger, you are referring to anger against whom?

IT: You have yielded ground on issues.
LKA: When the malady is spread so widely and is so deep-rooted, the demands of good governance and the demands of remedying a certain malady have to be blended. This is what the Gujarat Government is trying to do.

IT: There are strong anti-incumbency drags on the Government. Do you think you need to present a big idea?
LKA: When you are referring to the anti-incumbency factors, you are obviously referring to the electoral battles ahead and so the big-idea factor is also in that context. This has to be thought about.

PERSONAL

IT: What would you feel is your biggest failure in this innings?
LKA: Yeh to doosra koi bataye. Main kya bataun? (Let others decide that, what can I say?)

IT: Any regrets?
LKA. The biggest regret is that the performance of this Government and its successes not being adequately reflected in the electoral battles fought during this period.

IT: You are busier now. Do you miss some things+like reading a book or watching a film?
LKA: I do. By and large, I try and spend time on these preferences of mine. I do not have time to go to the theatre, otherwise I used to see almost all the plays of the National School of Drama.

IT: Do you miss that?
LKA: I miss that. I compensate by organising my own shows.

IT: How do you remain so fit at your age?
LKA: I have always believed that people eat much more than is required. I have always been a small eater.