The relaxed environs of the five-star hotel did nothing to curb his impatience with the slow pace of India's economic reforms. "Too slow," bewailed Goh Chok Tong, Singapore's charismatic prime minister and you could almost imagine him shaking up India's bureaucracy to work faster and better. You also knew that it was not for nothing that he was considered the worthy successor to Lee Kuan Yew. Here, in a free-wheeling interview with
Prabhu Chawla, editor, India Today, Mr Goh spoke at length about his vision for the Indian economy and how Singapore could act as a catalyst. Excerpts from the exclusive interview:

REFORMIST AGENDA: Goh feels India must speed up its economic reforms

Q: This is your fourth visit to India as the prime minister. Do you think this has been more successful than your earlier trips?
A: I think they have been equally good. I came in 1994 and had discussions with Prime Minister P.V. Narasimha Rao on reforms. That was the beginning of my frequent trips to India.

Q: What do you expect from India?
A: Well, I expect India to perform much better in its economy. I believe it can do more. I'm not happy with India in its ability to realise its potential. I believe it can do more. Singapore-India relations too are on the right course but I am a little impatient. I think they should move faster.

Q: On a scale of 1 to 10 where would you place India in its reforms?
A: I am a visitor to your country, I did not come here to be an auditor or an examiner.

Q: But you're not happy with the speed…
A: I'm talking about Singapore where we want everything to be instant. But having said that, I understand India's complexity. India has one billion people compared to Singapore's one million people. So of course our sense of pace and speed is different.

Q: Could you elaborate on CECA and what is your vision for it?
A: CECA goes beyond the free trade area and lower tariffs. We will be going into the investment climate of India and how it can be made more conducive for foreign investments. We're also looking at the aviation sector. Normally this is outside the purview of free trade
e the negotiation of CECA in the following way: some early harvests - what can we do now. One area is in introducing charter services to non-metro cities. Then what are the other areas that we can do together, maybe in the IT services. Your IT professionals can work in Singapore.

Q: But will you relax the work permit rules for our professionals?
A: We will relax rules for professionals. Our goods attract no tariffs, so we can only offer you services. I think the IT sector has potential in services and I hope India can set up campuses in Singapore for post-graduate studies in information technology.

Q: But Indian IT professionals are afraid of going to Southeast Asia after what happened to them in Malaysia …
A: No, Singapore is different. You are very welcome.

Q: What did you expect from India which has not happened?
A: Well, opening up the civil aviation sector. I think that will take another age. I believe if India opens up its air service sector to all airlines, not just Singapore Airlines, tourism will flourish. More airlines should fly, more services take place.

Q: But the Indian Government feels that most foreign governments do not give the same treatment to Air India.
A: No, as far as we are concerned, we can open up more services to Air India.

Q: But at this moment Singapore Airlines is flying more flights to India as compared to Air India flights to Singapore?
A: No, you are welcome to have more flights.

Q: What is the reason for the low FDI in India?
A: If I may put it in the best way possible, after speaking to various poeple, there seem to be several reasons. First, the Gordian-knot bureaucracy. You have to cut through that knot, so reforms introduced by the Government will take some time to filter down. For example hire but no fire policies will have to be changed. If you hire a person he's with you for life. That's not the way the world works.

Q: So you want the labour policies to be changed ...
A: No, I have been told this is one of the areas which prevents foreign companies from coming i
est.

Q: What do you think of the prime minister?
A: I find him to be clued in on the need to reform the economy and we get along well as two individuals. A man of few words, but a man of deep thought.

Q: How much do you think Singapore's investment will grow in India?
A: We think if we can get this agreement through and India stays on the reform track, we can generate interest amounting to $1 billion over the next few years in the private sector. Investments from governments don't count, it impresses nobody.
Big countries need investments in infrastructure. In that sector, air services or the creation of air bridges is very important. Somebody wants to build an airbridge for you at their own cost, why should you object? You protect an airline, but the cost of that is tourism. If you open up the country, India in this case, to foreign airlines, these airlines will contribute to your earnings. What we're thinking of is not just Singaporeans coming to India. We're looking at this airbridge concept. Singapore has a lot of air services to India. But we can do more. Singapore can bring in tourists from Japan, China, Taiwan, Hongkong through Singapore to India.
There are many Buddhist shrines in India. Muslims made their pilgrimages every year. Buddhists too will come here. Once the airbridge is constructed tourists will come here, more hotels will be built, roads will be constructed transportation services will increase. Buddhist tourism is not exploited in India

Q: Will you give a blueprint to Indian government?
A: There is no dearth of ideas here.

Q: But the mindset has to be changed.
A: The mindset has changed. At least at the top level. But can you get the people to change their mindset without changing the bureaucracy. The people at the top understand free trade, but the bulk of the people have a protectionist mindset. When it comes to the crunch they do not want free trade.

Q: You were starting something in Chennai? What happened to that?
A: Well, Chennai wanted us to set up a huge industrial park, but it
lity of Singapore. The park would have been as big as Singapore. It is not possible to do things beyond our resources.

Q: But are you getting enough support from the Tamil Nadu government?
A: Actually they want us to do more but we have explained our restrictions.

Q: Are you not big enough to invest in a country like India?
A: We are not big enough to make a big difference to India but we can make a huge difference as a catalyst. We are very careful in our investments overseas. Therefore, if you can get Singapore investors to come over here, hopefully they will impress other foreign investors. That if Singapore goes to India there must be something in India.

Q: WHat are the things our prime minister needs to do to improve our relationship?
A: I think the first priority would be to get the economic cooperation agreement going. Then cooperation in terms of fighting terrorism and defence relations. Of course, there are other areas of international cooperation where our interests converge.

Q: On terrorism, do you support India's view on the cross-border issue with Pakistan?
A: We are very worried about terrorism. So far India has a unique problem in terms of cross-border incursions with Pakistan. That is what India worries about, but terrorism generally is cross-border.

Q: India is under pressure from th US and Britain to start a dialogue with Pakistan. But India feels that without stopping cross-border terrorism we cannot start a dialogue. Where do you stand?
A: Our stand is that the matter should be resolved peacefully and we would want India to work on a dialogue with Pakistan.

Q: Do you think India can put a precondition on stopping cross-border terrorism. Is it justified?
A: Well, this is a position that India has taken but I do not know whether they can get a dialogue going.

Q: Do you see this problem in your own country. Do you think fundamentalist Islam is a threat to world peace?
A: No I would be careful because Islam by and large is peaceful. I would be more careful over what we qualify a
entalist Muslim. I would say Muslims who preach violence use violent means to change governments and societies and society. But by and large Islam is a peaceful religion.

Q: You are against Muslim fundamentalists who try to change governments through violence?
A: I have some problem with fundamentalism. Because it means the basics.

Q: America believes that Iraq is the source of fundamentalism and mass destruction weapons. Is it justified in its stand?
A: I don't think that is the US position. I don't think US regards Iraq as Muslim fundamentalist society. The US has attacked Iraq for its weapons of mass destruction.

Q: They have not found anything so far…
A: So far. But Iraq is a secular society in the sense that it is more modern than Saudi Arabia.

Q: But the attack on Afghanistan was an attack on fundamentalism?
A: Because of the Taliban.

Q: Do you support America's stand against Iraq now?
A: Our position is a simple one. We are against weapons of mass destruction. So in the UN we took our position that Iraq must be disarmed. And we were trying to avert the war with Iraq by stating our position clearly.

Q: After 21 days of war, the US has not found a single chemical weapon anywhere in Iraq. What do you think?
A: I think we have to take a political step. The war has taken place on the basis of one thing: to disarm Iraq. If they find something it would vindicate the position of the US. If they have not found anything, even then the war has taken place, destruction has happened. So the focus is on the reconstruction of Iraq, the scenario after the war…

Q: India's stand is you cannot change the regime by using force, only the people of that country should change the regime. What's yours?
A: My position is similar to India's. But SIngapore agrees with the US on disarming a regime which has weapons of mass destruction.

Q: Do you think after this the world order will change?
A: The world order has already changed. Like it or not, the world has recognised the US position. I believe in the UN. I
al framework.

Q: Can we have a framework in Asia, for example in ASEAN. Do you think India deserves to be a full member rather than a dialogue partner?
A: Yes, in the times to come we are in favour of India being more actively involved in Asean. Singapore was actually instrumental in getting India into the ASEAN-India summit. We would like India to be a permanent member of ASEAN but you muct know that in ASEAN things happen by consensus.

Q: How concerned are you about SARS and what can be done to tackle it?
A: I am worried about this for a fundamental reason. We have alerted Indian leaders here that it is a very serious disease. We have not understood it completely. It is transmitted through close proximity. It's not airborne but it is very contagious. We're telling your people, please pay attention and examine passengers coming from SARS-stricken countries, including Singapore. Before you allow them to disembark, if somebody has a high fever, dry cough or such symptoms of SARS, then that person should be taken to hospital and even quarantined. If this spreads to India, imagine the panic it will cause. The first case that came to Singapore from Hong Kong was a super-spreader.

Q: Do you expect it to grow?
A: I expect it to grow in a cluster form. Everytime you think it is under control, it shows up in another cluster. Hopefully the clusters will become smaller, the frequancy will become less, but it is a problem we expect to be with the world for many months, maybe even years.

Q: What kind of a role can India play in world affairs?
A: India is a big country, but for it to play a bigger role India must have economic strength. Without it people don't listen to you carefully, even if you are a big country.

Q; But we are a big market ...
A: Big market but with a high wall. Lower your tariffs. They are much higher than tariffs in Asean countries. My point is, India must have confidence in itself. Look at the Indians working in the US and Singapore. Why can't India exploit its own human resources potential?

Q: You had made a statement that you would like Singapore to be a bridge between India and China. How will you accomplish that?
A: Yes. China is an emerging economy, so is India, though China started its reforms in 1978. We are situated in between. Singapore has been investing in China and has trade with China for years, last 15 years, we have contacts in China. We have also been dealing with India for the past few years. So we're familiar with the Indian democracy, problems, and such.
One such way is when we lead a business delegation from Singapore to China, we could include interested business from India to China - a joint delegation. The same thing will apply when we come to India.
Then, suppose if India wants to invest in China, India needs to get a Chinese partner. Then a Singapore party can take an interest in the project and take a small share in the partnership. So there is the confidence of the Chinese who may not understand the Indian so much, but can liase through the Singapore partner.

Q: You said you wanted to see a greater cooperation in terrorism. How do you see that happening?
A: The first is exchange of intelligence between the two countries on terrorist activities both in southeast Asia and in your part of the world. It is possible that we will set up a working committee on terrorism. Right now the exchanges are informal, but this is in the process of being discussed. We are thinking about a high level working committee, maybe headed at the director (joint secretary) level. This idea was suggested to us by India. It can be formalised and the committee can meet regularly. Now it meets on a need basis. We want to institutionalise it.

Q: Southeast Asia is being looked upon as a growing centre for Islamic fundamentalism activity. Do you think there is a need for a united approach?
A: I think we should first try and understand what is happening. People are becoming more
hat has been evident for some time - maybe because the world is moving too fast, so people are moving to religion. For Islam, the impulses come from the Middle East, from Saudi Arabia, where the Saudis are exporting this version of Islam, with funding and through the imams. This has brought about a change in the Muslims. In comparison to others, when Muslims find religion, they want to isolate themselves from society. They want to be on their own - their place and kitchen must be halal and so on. In a multi-racial society, when one group moves away, then it is a problem. But a small group among them, and I emphasise a small group, want to change the world so that the world is like them. They believe that through violence they can change the country, then the region and finally the world.

Q: Do you think this is a threat to global peace?
A: I think the world will have to deal with this over the next 10-20 years. For these people, their job of changing the world is sanctioned by Allah, but a small group of a few thousands can create such a lot of problems.

Q: So the money flow has to be cut…
A: Definitely. The money issue has to be looked into. Suspects have to be monitored.

Q: Do you think a multilateral approach can work on this?
A: The US should be the rightful place, but it has not been able to do it. Ultimately a few groups of countries would have to act together to cut off funding for this sort of people.

Q: You said you wanted greater defence cooperation with India. How do you plan to go about it?
A: We have defence relations with a lot of other countries. Some countries provide training for our personnel. India can do a lot of this, and we have different kinds of planes. We have American F-16s, while yours are the Russian MiGs. Maybe we could have joint exercises, meet people to build up confidence.
Sea piracy is a big threat for the future. If the economies of the region don't take off, poor people will take to piracy.